Does free will exist?

Do you believe free will exist?

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I don't care, I'm here to do drugs, fuck and have a good time before my body gives up

I believe the only thing that prevents you from anything is yourself, your brain. I also used to believe that things are pre-determined for you, like your fate, what you're destined to get, etc. But imo that's not really right, and you can essentially do whatever you put your mind to if you tell yourself you can do it, as faggot as it sounds.

Life is largely a game of chance and luck. That’s it. The amount of free will and control we have is only relative to what we can realistically do. We’re not gods. There’s ascribed status that you’re born with, and achieved status that you work for. These usually go hand in hand in some way. It’s very extremely rare to go from very poor ascribed status to very rich. But you can get somewhere in the middle probably. Motivation is a really big part of it because if you’re so motivated to you can basically do anything within realistic parameters. But without that motivation, it’s not possible. Depression, attention deficiency, other mental health problems. Most people are pacified cowards, but you can break that mold. And it’s not entirely their fault either. Some people simply have easy lives, are self-motivated, confident and inherently in good mental health, are lucky, and never question why or how nor are they even grateful for their good lives. In fact, they always demand even more. It’s just the way it is for them. They’re born with the goods to succeed, and they do. Other people are very unlucky and have lifelong shitty lives. Poor people have to cope and be “grateful” and submit to other nonsense narratives like that because they believe it’s their best chance to hedge their bets. Upbringing also plays a huge role, as you have no control over that. The key to breaking the matthew effect is not to figure out how to get out of being poor, but to position yourself into being rich immediately (aka get rich right away), not figure out how to become rich, like a scheme. If you follow me. Just get there. That’s the key. So then, you can simply get more rich once you are. All things considered, it’s definitely complicated.

tldr: kinda, but not in the way that you probably think.

>t. unemployed philosophy major

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%100
The only people that believe this bs are the ones that wants to justify them being failures "its not my fault it was my destiny I have 0 control over it"
And they want to drag everyone else yo their level of failure. Its the same as mass shooters mindset but less extreme.

Lets play a little thought experiment. Why did you make this post? Bare with me

My brain chemicals told me so. I have no control over it

There you go. Good job.

You cannot choose your desires and thus since your desires led to your action, you inadvertly did not choose your actions

Not really. Every discovery and scientific finding always point to the opposite. But as one of leading neurological scientists once said;”if it quacks like a duck”

Yea. Believing that everything is pre determined is a belief for lazy people and other losers.

free will exists for god
for everything else they are dealt a portion of will
to create the spectrum of degrees of will

you can increase your will and willpower

Pre determination can be a complex system that feels like free will. You are clearly too lazy to read up on any of this. Are you also a loser?

Here's the thing.
Free will may or may not actually exist and you may or may not believe in it. It's unlikely we'll ever fully know, certainly not within our life time.
That generates 4 states;
Given that free will doesn't exist implies that your opinion doesn't matter because the outcome is the same anyways.
But given that free will *does* exist our thoughts and actions do make a difference.
Under the first scenario "trying hard" is not punished or rewarded, in the second scenario there's a clear advantage to doing so.
Therefore it's mathematically speaking sound to assume that life is not predetermined because averagely speaking over those four variations it has positive influence on your life.

Math is not with you on this one. Math already show risk and rewards of human behavior and we can predict outcome.
Humans have been doing this for a long time already, and we are only scraping the surface. Nowhere in science does anything lead to free will. A complex system that we don’t fully understand yet does not mean free will. At least nothing point in that direction so far.
You can theorize free will, but you cannot say there is any proof of it

Consciousness it self is a freewill. If you completely controlled by the chemical in your brain then why don't you rape as soon as you are horny? Why do people fast when they can eat as soon as they are hungry?

What's that, they want to fulfill other desires is the reason they didn't act on their body instinct? So you are telling me in the end I HAVE A CHOICE?

Nothing you said disproved my train of thought.
Two permutations are neutral and have no consequences and two align with what I just said.
Even if I turn out to be wrong there is no damage done. If you are wrong though, you must pay the consequences.

A complex system does not mean free will. If you can prove what you are saying you will be the first one to do so.
I did. Actually you disproved yourself, shouldn’t have tried to lecture us about math.

i was going to get upset for being ignored but i realise now that you just dont understand

the responses of this thread man.

>I did. Actually you disproved yourself, shouldn’t have tried to lecture us about math.
I am unsure how you arrived at that conclusion but sure.
Go smoke crack and don't get a job. There's nothing you could have done about it anyways, right?

>complex system doesn't mean free will

What does it mean then to have choice to go against your "brain chemical that controls my brain like zombie"? Give me an answer not some vague gibberish bs

This what he already does and that's how he justifies it %100

Nope, there's no such will. You should know all possible options when deciding to think or do something and that's not possible

If my replies are not satisfactory and make you into triggered little bitches you can search this on your own too and see for yourself

>Couldn't find answet to my question

Also why are mad at the chemical of my brain being triggered? Oh fuck I forgot you don't have control over your emotions you LITTLE BITCH

no, because everything I think is a result of electro-chemical processes in my brain.
These processes are determined by outside interferences from the start.
And I can't think of a single thing in reality that is isolated from outside interference.
we live in a universe that seems entirely random, yet 100% deterministic.
hence I don't believe in my existence being special, or immutable in any way.

I have laid out in simple words that assuming we have control over ourselves is either neutral or positive and assuming the opposite is either neutral or negative, and therefore it's only logical to assume we have free will for simple pragmatic reasons.
If you can't even wrap your head around this, or provide a reasonable counter argument, then I don't feel sorry for supporting you in your self destructive perceptions.

No. But for the purposes of literally anything outside of this argument, we should pretend it exists to some extent. It's the ultimate tooth fairy, the ultimate santa.

But that user won't smoke crack and likely has a job, because everything in his life lead to him not wanting to, or not being able to access meth, so that his mind never contemplates that course of action.

>assuming we have control over ourselves is either neutral or positive and assuming the opposite is either neutral or negative, and therefore it's only logical to assume we have free will for simple pragmatic reasons.

Not an argument

something being good or neutral (to you), does not mean it exists

It's a binary problem. It's either one thing or the other.

Not an argument

something being one thing or the other, does not mean it exists

I am saying that either:
Free will exists and I'm right.
Or
Free will doesn't exist and it doesn't matter.

I like my chances.

Having self-awareness it self means freewill exists. If you don't have freewill you will not be self-aware of your existence. Simple as

That's a poorly disguised concession not an argument.

You cannot prove free will exists more than I can prove determinism is correct- billions being sunk into advertising, political campaigning, demonstrate the existence of reliable cause and effect chains. Sex sells for example.

But consider this. The belief that there is free will is just one more factor or preceding event in a deterministic view. You may believe free will exists or that it doesn't, and that you were either right or it doesn't matter, but that entire thought process only ever came from a deterministic origin. Free will is only an influence in how this conversation on Any Forums carried out.

free will doesn't exist because your actions are limited within reality, so it would be called "reality-will".
and secondly it can't exist because your actions are always reactionary, meaning you're getting inputs, then giving outputs.
you aren't free to act, nor are you free to think.
Also you need to interact with things in order to have effect.

Free will is an illusion.

You are an amalgamation of outside influences from your past that were entirely beyond your control yet which dictate everything you think, say and do.

Even if the 'soul' exists and we are more than the sum of our parts, that still doesn't mean we have a free will, there's just another layer of 'outside influence' laid ontop.

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unfalsifiable hypothesis

>That's a poorly disguised concession not an argument.
My argument has not changed since the first post.

We don't know how deterministic the universe is, and as long as we don't know, we must consider the possibility that it is not.
And if we consider the possibility that it may not be deterministic then we are best advised to assume we have free will because as stated several times already:
My life will be better than yours if I'm right, and if I'm wrong then there's no damage done. If you're right then nothing changes for yourself, but if you're wrong your life is gonna get worse because you refused to accept responsibility for your own life.

It is pragmatic to assume we have free will and that the universe is not deterministic, even if we are not certain.

Sort of, I think our consciousness has it internally, but the amount of energy and effort to force it into reality means its just not always gonna come to fruition, since our body's framework still assumes we're trying to survive in the wild and that things like sugar and salt are rare commodities to chase whenever its chanced upon. So since our bodies haven't evolved to adapt to a life where we live in excess, it tries its hardest to steer us away from painful things because that kind of thing gets you killed and miss vital opportunities. That unfortunately includes changing learned routines and even ideas if you haven't spent enough time questioning what you believe.

Honestly I think the concept of it itself is weirdly idealistic, it doesn't account for the laws of the world and how things function, technically what we have now could be TRUE free will in a material world sense, where everything is a chain reaction of something else and nothing is truly independent. Or what we have could be merely the beginning of burgeoning free will, which like consciousness has to evolve with time, which give us that existential dread because we're in that painful step of developing it, like puberty lol.

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The first half is semantics, which I can't be bothered to argue about. The fact that you choose between A and B, but can't choose C doesn't change the fact that you've got a choice.

Secondarily the "argument" that one can't make a decision out of free will if you are influenced by other things is a very wild assumption which is based on exactly nothing. Those things are nit connected.

Depends how you define free.
Free of biochemical processes and the determinism of physics? No.
Free in the sense that you're so complex that the only way to figure out what you think is for the universe to run (You) and see how you respond? Yes. At least if you assume a human brain is turing complete, which it probably is.
Free in the sense that you are completely unbounded in how you think and feel? No.
Free in the sense that you can choose how you think and feel within those bounds? Yes.
Free in the sense that you are completely independent of your circumstance and past experiences? No.
Free in the sense that you can adapt yourself and change your attitude, in response to those past experiences, in a variety of ways? Yes.

My definition of free will is "Your attitude at this one point is a major factor in how you're going to change yourself, and determine your attitude at a future point". At which point yes, you do have that.
You aren't free of past experiences. You aren't free of biochemical bonds. You aren't free of being predicted to some degree.
But a crucial part of determining how (You) will think and feel in the future is to ask you in the present and have you make decisions about it. Nobody and nothing can bypass that process of your consciousness in this moment determining what it shall become.
>But I'm made of chemicals
Of course you are, you're made of chemicals that are self-aware and self-regulating. I'm sick of this argument that you can't make a self-regulating algorithm because it's made of atoms.
>But I'm governed by the past and the laws of physics
Which code for (You), a sentience. Those laws of physics running mean that (You)r consciousness runs and determines how it acts. You are part of the deterministic process.
>But I'm not completely free of my circumstance
Nope, but your attitude in this moment determines your attitude in the next moments and thus the circumstances you build for yourself
>I want an excuse to feel sad
Too bad.

And if you want to be productive in your definitions (which I assume you do, because the Talos principle still applies and you are a meatbag that requires energy intake to remain functional)
Then it's far more useful to focus on the choices you can make about how you think and feel, instead of the choices that you cannot. I.e. who you can become, given your current circumstance + the breadth of options you could reach if you so decide to aim for them.
To focus on shit you can't obtain and bounds you cannot break is useless in the context of (You) being a meatbag that needs to intake energy, and it's more useful to focus on the parts of your mindset you do control.
Which isn't 100% of it, I'll give you that much. But it's enough for you to be able to change (You)rself and solve problems, to ensure that your meatbag maintains its energy intake.

>You are an amalgamation of outside influences from your past that were entirely beyond your control yet which dictate everything you think, say and do.
One of which is that the past created a consciousness which can evaluate itself and thus figure out what it wants to change. Yes, (You) are an inevitable force. You're still (You).

>doubling down on how you were wrong

>We don't know how deterministic the universe is, and as long as we don't know, we must consider the possibility that it is not.
The position of agnostics, which is reasonable, but is still no argument at all.

But to get to your supposed 'argument': "the possibility that it may not be deterministic then we are best advised to assume we have free will"

And your support for this statement is yet another completely unfounded statement claiming that the existence of free will can drastically alter the quality of a person's life depending on that person's belief in free will. That is a massive claim, it is not evidence, it is not an argument, it provides absolutely no support to anything you say. I can just as easily claim that free will does not exist, determinism is true, and all events up to this moment have determined that my life will continue to go on quite nicely, and will continue to do so. And at the same time, I can say that free will does exist, that I will choose to make my life go on quite nicely. These two statements are completely logical- and completely opposed to yours. I think you have really internalized the idea that accepting determinism means letting go of everything, without understanding that the extent of any influence on someones life from accepting determinism is realistically only about as influential as what believing in free will might do to someone's life.

I agree to your last sentence only to the extent that it is pragmatic (and valued) to at least believe in the pretense of free will. A belief in free will or at least a belief in the self-efficacy needed to change the trajectory of one's life, with the support of steadily growing knowledge in very deterministic cause and effect relationships (e.g. childhood habits to health decisions in old age), is a good thing.

Not even the most hardcore atheist biological determinist dudes actually walk around treating everyone as though they are a deterministic machine with no free will. If even people who don't think we have free will act contrary, I don't think there's much stake in the worldview.

It brings more questions than answers too. If we don't have free will why do we punish people for crime? If somebody commits a crime of passion, and they won't commit crime again because the circumstances have passed, we have no reason to punish them.

>If we don't have free will why do we punish people for crime? If somebody commits a crime of passion, and they won't commit crime again because the circumstances have passed, we have no reason to punish them.

Because crimes of passion can be considered outliers. It will still be punished, since exercising it's monopoly on force and punishment tends to reinforce the legitimacy of it, because such punishments introduce a deterring cause in the wider environment, and it satisfies the need for revenge. And there are instances where crimes of passion have those circumstances taken into account, and the punishment reduced accordingly, so it's not like the court systems of the world just blindly sentence people without a care for mitigating factors.

you are your brain chemicals. thought coexists with the brain chemicals, we just don't associate our thoughts with them because they are not physical. the dichotomy between brain chemicals and free will is a false one.

>Do you believe free will exist?
it does not. we're all monkeys making monkey decisions. it's folly to think you can outwit millions of years of evolution

Free in pretty much everything. How you think feel etc..
Everything from your body to your brain all just a tool to your consciousness that makes the one makes the decisions.

Your body takes energy to convert to your consciousness which transfer that energy to choices you make. Its literally that's how it works. You can choose how you think. Everything from your toes to your brain and the things surrounding you are just a tool for you to control (not other people of course). You are not "destined to consequences of the universe" the universe is just a fucking tool for consciousness

No. Free will is a cope for retards.

Everything is linked to a causal chain, and neither randomness nor determinism is freedom.

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>The position of agnostics, which is reasonable, but is still no argument at all.
I think there's an important difference though: Agnosticism requires that you take the existence of a god into serious consideration. It is not so much of a binary question because there's a gazillion religions with a gorillion gods and saints. Choosing to somewhat believe in one or several of them is much more of a specific choice than deducting that "the universe is either deterministic, or it is not."

>And your support for this statement is yet another completely unfounded statement claiming that the existence of free will can drastically alter the quality of a person's life depending on that person's belief in free will. That is a massive claim, it is not evidence, it is not an argument, it provides absolutely no support to anything you say.
Well people are generally speaking lazy and giving them an excuse to be lazy "because it can't be helped" won't motivate them to do something of their life, now will it?

>I think you have really internalized the idea that accepting determinism means letting go of everything
That is true. If someone believes their life is pre determined the only logical conclusion is dropping all endeavors that go beyond your personal well being because why would you try to be a good person any more? Why would you do anything that you don't directly benefit from any more? Why would you do anything besides shooting up heroin anyways? If every shitty action in your life is covered by the statement "it's all pre-determined, nothing I could have done about it" you reject any responsibility for your actions. It is breeding grounds for suicide and terrorism and any other shitty thing you can think about.

It's a lazy attitude to rationalize shitty behavior. Maybe not everyone doubles down on that state of mind, but it's a very real possibility, which is why I reject it.

Yes I believe that free will exists. Any decision you make is evidence of it so of course it does.

hello brainlet

What is your stance on the matter then?

It doesn't cost anything, so yes it is free.

No. But the bigger takeaway is that it doesn't actually matter whether or not free will exists. "Arriving at a decision" due to electric and chemical signals propagating through your brain is entirely equivalent to "deciding on your own". Further, moral training from the perspective of being responsible for your own decisions shapes the actions you ultimately take. Just like we should live as though there is a God, we should also live as though you alone are the keeper of your own destiny.

Yes I’m choosing to post this now

Woman would you be willing to put on a bikini and a remote controlled shock collar and be your bf and his friends maid and waitress on super bowl Sunday? your bf and his friends take turns having the remote control which controls the shock collar locked on your neck.

Pic sorta related

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yes

>but it's a very real possibility, which is why I reject it.

Ok, at least you accept it is a possibility, rather than a given. For your example of, 'why not do anything besides shoot up heroin', most people likely don't know where to buy heroin and have prior events in their life causing them to disdain heroin. For determinism to work in the possibility you fear it might, someone would have to go to a lot of effort to change their life for the worst.

It's perhaps true free will as an idea is a lot more resistant to being used as an excuse for shitty behavior compared to determinism. I accept that. But I don't accept determinism would be used as an excuse in the way you fear, not in any significant manner. If determinism is real, and people explicitly believe in it so, I'd claim most people would carry on with their lives without engaging in shitty behavior, because the sheer momentum of life experiences they've had will keep them on that path.

are you ???

Does it matter?
If you mean in a religious sense, no, there is no sky daddy who tells you what is right or wrong and to whose morality we need to subjugate ourselves, and there is no big plan and no big purpose and it is a blessing. You are free to do whatever you want.
If you mean by chemicals, well in certain ways we are slaves to our biology and the chemical processes that is coded in our DNA. This may change in the future though. Theoretically you could use CRISPR yourself in your very own work desk and gene edit yourself for a few hundred bucks.

Free will is a silly concept. People started pondering it a very long time ago, when the foundations of philosophy weren't settled and we had a very poor understanding of the universe. Now, if we spend enough time thinking about it we realize that there is no such thing as a separate entity in the universe. Everything is part of the same thing and moves according to some internally consistent rules. Saying that we have free will is no different than saying that the northern hemisphere of the earth has a free will. Or saying that a colony of ants has free will. Or saying that a group of cells in your liver has free will. They're all part of the same thing.

Wrapping your mind around this is fairly hard, because your brain evolved to recognize patterns and put them into categories. When stuff takes a certain form you call it a human. When it takes a different form you call it a chair. But it's still just stuff, at it's core we're made of the same things, no matter if its a dog or the sun they're all different arrangements of quarks and electrons that function according to the same rules.

Free will is a funny term. I think you need to specify what you mean by it.

If you mean "are we able to make choices objectively" then no. We are born into specific circumstances with specific genetics. That's all predetermined. Genetics and circumstance determines baseline willpower, intelligence and health.

Form that baseline, we progress or regress. Again dependent on circumstance and genetics.

As for choices, they are made before we are conscious of them. Then our brain rationalises it.

We are not free. I never asked to be born.