"Suppose to lose" fight

Your opinion on these kind of fights in video game? Are they a waste of time and resourse?

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KINO
I WISH THERE WAS A GAME WITH ONLY THIS MECHANIC IN PLACE THAT WOULD BE SO LUDO

it annoys me that games play fast and loose with what exactly 0 HP means. is it death? because many forced loss fights end with the character simply being out of breath.

Videogames are a waste of time anyway.

theyre ok as long as they immediately make it clear there's no way you can win.
If you can chip away forever and then a scripted attack or something kills you, that's cringe and reddit

They are ludo you idiot. Don't you remember the first fight against Vile in Mega Man X?

It still pisses me off. I remember playing dragon ball sagas when it came out. You're supposed to lose to the androids. But if you actually lose it resets the fight because you have to win the fight to reach the cutscene where it starts with "having been easily defeated by the androids". Just make losing count as losing if I'm supposed to easily lose to them.

>Trails of max diff
>Hard boss fight
>Used all revive items
>Get 999999 damage on all chars
>Story continued...
>Load game

I'm two minds about the design. On one hand, it does adhere to game version of "show, don't tell", emergent/mechanical storytelling, it's unintrusive in that it doesn't take away player control, etc. On the other hand, it does tend to involve railroading of the player being forced into the fight often on flimsy excuses or arguably even worse artificially preventing the player from winning/surviving even if there's no narrative reason they couldn't and they mechanically they can, it does tend to feature concepts like "bosses" having 100x capabilities of similar non-boss enemies which flies straight in the face of any mechanically unintrusive worldbuilding you were trying to accomplish to begin with, and often times player control gets taken away anyway after you reach some trigger (like your/enemy's health reaching 0).

I think the idea has its heart in the right place but sometimes the implementation is disastrous (something like ) and other times it's just bad. I struggle to think of any example that I actually liked. Perhaps Planescape: Torment for a couple of instances where you can advance by dying?

It's great when you get to refight whoever busted you the first time and they are mostly the same as your first encounter, except this time you match their strength.
Alternatively when you can take away some of the boss HP before they decide to not underestimate you and use their powerful move, especially if surviving the weaker attacks is already difficult.

I don't mind them but yeah as said it needs to be obvious you can't win. If I bop some guy with a skill and it does like 3 damage where it would usually do hundreds then yeah I can see that shit,
Some games will make it look real up until a point and those sometimes trick you into wasting resources just to find out every item you used were just thrown into the abyss,
The most important part is that if you're supposed to lose you need to actually lose *in* the fight, battles you flat out win and then immediately show a scene where you lose and they're dominating you are fucking garbage.
I think my favourite is the example in Kingdom Hearts 1 where you fight Leon in Traverse Town, you can actually win that battle despite being intended to lose, however since its the start of your journey Sora collapses from exhaustion after fighting an experienced warrior and the story continues the same way, but you get an unique scene to match your results. If there's more examples like that I'd love to see them.

I usually interpret it as being knocked out. It's why you can revive people in combat but not when they die in a cutscene, because cutscene death is "real." If everyone is KO'd in battle you lose because the enemy can just kill your unconscious ass in peace.

That doesn't make sense either. If I have 200 max HP and I get hit for 9999 damage, how would I still be alive?

I really like the fight in Final Fantasy V where Exdeath tries to show up and off the party real early, and everyone hits 0HP and gets knocked out except old man Galuf continues to fight at 0HP keeping himself up to protect everyone, which is why he dies for real afterwards for going back those natural limits.

>meant to lose the fight
>can win through pure strategy and skill anyway
>get a special reward/dialogue for doing so
trails in the sky SC does this with the loewe fight. MH generations/GU allows you ONE try to kill each of the fated four flagships in their ambush quests and if you do you might be able to make their gear early.

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Literal autism: the post.

Doesn't something similar happen with Tellah in 4? First there's the business about how he never gets enough mana to cast meteor, but when he does its his final battle

Same way some people can get shot in the fucking brain and still survive.

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My only rule with "supposed to lose" fights is that there should be a way to win and a reward for it. Good examples are FF8 omega. Deus ex, where you save paul.

>FF8 omega
That's a superboss at the end of the game. You're talking about the other robot at the start of the game.

Ah yes, thanks for correcting me; X-ATM092.
Usually omega is the name for the mech boss in the FF series.
finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Omega_(enemy)

The first Genichiro fight at the start of the game is the best version of this I can think of. The chances of a new player beating him are basically nonexistant and he chops your arm off in the cutscene after he beats you, setting him up as one of the major antagonists of the game. It makes it seem like you have to lose but it's still possible to win, especially on NG+. And if you beat him then he cheats to win anyway in the cutscene and you still get your arm chopped off.

funnily enough I took that to be a BAD example of it when I played, because it has absolutely no impact on the story or game progression in any way and gives you no rewards iirc.