If Ultimate literally just added wavedashing and momentum from dash jumps, would melee players really have a good argument for ultimate being worse? Like is there anything beyond those two things that makes melee "good"? Everything else melee has is either in ultimate or a redundant, unnecessary technique that was only in melee because it was designed poorly (i.e. L-cancelling)
Or would smelees still get upset about ultimate because it's better designed, has a bigger more interesting roster, and doesn't require a dozen inputs per second, therefore making it less skilled on a technical level which means it's the worst thing ever
As a Project M player I would complain that the movesets of many characters, especially newcomers, in the game are bland, uninspired, boring, and not fun to use still. Melee players can't be fully pleased though, since they think their game is perfect. The only reason they don't like PM more is because of purely made up bullshit
Landon Thompson
>Would people completely resistant to change enjoy the new thing, even if it had all of the old things they liked No, Arena shooter fags proved this long ago. If the new game is different, why play it because the good shit is right here. If the new game is the same, why play it because I already have the good shit here?
Grayson Gray
Can someone explain to me how "smelee" is an insult.
Ultimate already has a mod like that. It even has fucking edge hogging, for some awful reason.
Connor Stewart
>if you completely overhauled the gameplay of ultimate would melee players finally think it's good? Yeah, but it would still have dogshit PAID online.
Jose Allen
SSB64 had z-cancelling. Also have fun learning 70 MUs. People attack melee saying "only 6 chars are viable!!!" but thats still enough, especially with the depth the game has to offer. Ultimate would be fun if it ran at 1.5x speed Its just so slow... and boring... and tedious... and casual... The snapping to ledge is such a pleb mechanic. Including huge ass invincibility. Plus the game ugly af. Ever seen Yoshi on the results screen. Melee came out in 2001 and holds up better than SmUsh. Also Ultimate loading times are truly ultimate... kek Everything takes forever in that game.
James Torres
>The snapping to ledge is such a pleb mechanic. Including huge ass invincibility. Ledge hogging is worse and not even that hard
Carter Ortiz
Looks cool but I prefer the balloon knockback in vanilla ultimate.
Brandon Watson
ledge hogging was in thr first game as well. it makes sense, though. Why should the recovering opponent be able to grab it when someone else is holding it? sounds like you got filtered by "difficult" smash games. many such cases
Liam Parker
game still needs more hit stun.
Hunter Garcia
It's just not a fun or interesting mechanic whether you're the one hogging or the one trying to get to the ledge
Parker Foster
There is more variety amongst the viable melee characters (fox, falco, sheik, marth, puff, pikachu, yoshi, samus, ice climbers, peach, falcon) than the entirety of ultimate's roster. The skill ceiling of each melee character is practically endless while the skill floor and skill ceiling of ultimate characters are right on top of each other. When you learn one character in ultimate you pretty much already know how to play 10 others automatically.
Charles Reed
>There is more variety amongst the viable melee characters (fox, falco, sheik, marth, puff, pikachu, yoshi, samus, ice climbers, peach, falcon) than the entirety of ultimate's roster. This is just a flat out lie. You've never played ultimate. >The skill ceiling of each melee character is practically endless while the skill floor and skill ceiling of ultimate characters are right on top of each other. more skill doesn't always equal better. I could make pressing forward in a video game require 5 inputs all of which have to be pressed within 2 frames of each other. It would make the game take more skill but that doesn't mean it's better. A lot of melee's techniques require autistic execution to do things that aren't that amazing. It's cool to get a specific combo or really specific spacing using obscure or hard to do techniques but the most common techniques in melee require a lot of practice to get consistently with the reward of doing something you could do in other games with little or way less effort. >When you learn one character in ultimate you pretty much already know how to play 10 others automatically. Again you haven't played ultimate.
Cooper Carter
L canceling isn't hard. Wavedashing isn't hard. Wizzrobe top 8'd an ultimate major. An ultimate player will never make it out of pools at a melee major.
Anthony Miller
never played anything past brawl but here is the minimum list of necessary mechanics that melee has >SDI per frame of hit stun, ASDI on last frame of hitstun, knockback DI >momentum >airdodge momentum >platform slideoffs/cancels >shield mechanics like shield stun, limited actions out of shield, shield poking, shield tilting, powershielding, light shielding, shield dropping on platforms most of these things, but especially SDI/ASDI/DI (using both control and c-stick independently) fall into an 'option select' meta. a healthy fighting game like streetfighter third strike has a deep option select meta for defensive actions that if you are unaware of you are not even really playing the game. play even an intermediate player in third strike/melee and you will look like a little boy if you don't know these mechanics. youtube.com/watch?v=7N2CIULTwCI
l cancelling isn't hard but that doesn't mean it isn't a retarded unnecessary mechanic. wavedashing takes time to practice to do it optimally
Asher Fisher
being offstage in ultimate barely feels like being at a disadvantage cause recovering is piss easy for most of the cast. Ledgehoggin in melee isnt perfect (I'd make ledgehogging only possible for like half a second after grabbing ledge) but it overall makes disadvantage actually feel like a disadvantage.
Daniel Ramirez
to add to this, it doesn't add enough depth compared to how absolutely crucial it is for competitive play. >you can mess up l cancelling timings yeah okay and 99% of the time thats not the case, instead its just an extra input that you HAVE to do, while not actually adding to the gameplay. Unlike wavedashing which allows you to improve movement, combos, individuality etc by mastering it.
Jeremiah Cruz
yeah this is one of my big issues with ult every character (other than little mac) has a super good recovery and edgeguarding is almost pointless with how difficult it is to do you can't gimp either, other than a select few niche situations no ledge hogging + super hard edgeguarding is why nobody even tries and instead just opts to shield at the ledge and try to read a getup option
Eli Carter
because of hitstun and shield stun, l canceling timing changes dynamically. this means you can influence, in an un-reactable way, your opponents timing to cause them to miss it. you can do this as a mixup so that you can punish their missed L-cancel. also, depending on if they are option selecting by using digital shield input vs light shield/Z button input for their l-cancel, you can cause them to go into tech lockout and punish their missed tech.
