Here's attempting a comprehensive starter topic on MMOs; if you like any of it or have anything to add, post.
..Does Any Forums realize how easy it would be to fix MMOs? You can even have action combat; RTS has been doing hundreds of units since 1999, and Planetside 2 exists, both with projectiles. You technically could code collision by distance; and networking is position, direction, and action.
Also, leveling is archaic. It's removing content to pad gameplay length; it's been done since at least 2004 with WoW, not to mention SP games; and it's so repetitive and shallow that most experienced gamers are done with it (but I wouldn't be surprised if fresh gamers are too, especially because tutorial areas are still so abundant, and the usual leveling simply isn't that varied or deep).
Post your critiques, suggestions, and theories.
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Inb4 •That the whole genre isn't OK. It simply means "massively multiplayer" as is evidenced by the multiple subgenres. If you want it to mean MMORPG, this is also the topic for you, and the design optimals are still the same. Maybe you should define RPG. •That it's a lot to make an MMO. A few developers could make some characters, items, areas, and activities per day and have enough content in a month. •Counter-claims to that leveling is only negative, without a logical argument (e.g., not appealing to tradition or popularity). Learning a character would take maybe an hour for OK competence. If you don't like the game without leveling, you don't like the gameplay loops.
but doing quests in WoW zones are the best memories i have of the game
Andrew Johnson
•Claims that theme parks are plenty for everybody. There's a strict difference between theme park and sandbox; WoW would still be a theme park if it had territory control, but make equipment full loot and with materials-expensive durability repairs, and you have a thriving economy where (with a few, respawning, world PvE options having various sorts of loot) anyone can get some equipment from the auction house and adventure out and get lucky and rich. Make the rewards intense enough, and you have base-building, territory control, bonuses, NPC cooperation, and accessibility to various item rewards. Make the landscape strategic enough, and you have actively controlling resources and logistics to and from cities. Make respawning only possible in cities, and you have the community coming together for the surrounding area. •That "tab-target and hotkeys" isn't OK. It has a lot of potential; see DFO, which has combos.
All players want accessibility because that's where they're effective and competitive and, if particularly god status, much more comparatively skillful in winning.
Taking that to the next level, and as it was already mentioned how important economy is to having things to do, everybody wants full loot and materials-expensive durability. It's what makes possible extreme variability in power; having huge benefits from equipment is OK if it's only kept via evasion / skillfulness.
Legitimacy of botting and real money economies is really important. Botting is A). everybody having it fairly; B). character density, which is OK if you can take their items; C). further potential of designing depth and variety, specifically speed in items gained and traded; D). user happiness -- via only playing how and what they want -- loyalty, advertising, and thus further concurrent count; and E). creativity, because they'll be efficient if they have knowledge, and there are more immediately-fun reasons to play than gathering goods and making money.
Even populated servers don't have the character prevalence for quest grouping.
Lincoln Jackson
Darkfall online was literally quake fps combat in a mmorpg. And the fights were 300+ people at its height.
leveling exists because the only thing you can use for longterm addiction is repetitive progression systems of which leveling is the most obvious. Games like wow call you max lvl at some point but youre effectively still leveling over secondary systems.
Joseph Parker
>Even populated servers don't have the character prevalence for quest grouping. I think it's about 50:50.
Nicholas Perry
The point of critiquing leveling is that linear numbers are repetitive and shallow.
So you want a better hidden fake progress hamster wheel?
Jose Bailey
Do you have any idea how many terrible fucking PVP focused "MMO" there have been? With the exact fucking tenets you've described? A lot, a whole fucking lot, and then nobody plays and the servers get taken down. So many that just wanted combat more complex than tab-target that turned into complete god damn vaporware.
The game you are describing from your armchair is not enjoyable to play. It is a bad design. >All players want accessibility Is down right antithetical to the appeal of MMO. The truth is people enjoy separating the wheat from the chaff via filtering their ass from a slog that helps create the semblance of competency in an endgame. The alternative is a game made for and populated by literal children, women and other forms of the mentally disabled. Unless you're making some trashy battle royal, the communistic systems in place to create accessibility via balance isn't a boon, it is the absolute worst fucking thing you can do.
Logan Carter
>I think it's about 50:50. In BC Classic, there were a few people at the very start of Durotar but none in the caves, even after being in there for 30 minutes to 1 hour, or inbetween.
I just logged into retail's Stormwind starting area, and there are none here.
> >make equipment full loot and with materials-expensive durability repairs, and you have a thriving economy where (with a few, respawning, world PvE options having various sorts of loot) anyone can get some equipment from the auction house and adventure out and get lucky and rich. Make the rewards intense enough, and you have base-building, territory control, bonuses, NPC cooperation, and accessibility to various item rewards. Make the landscape strategic enough, and you have actively controlling resources and logistics to and from cities. Make respawning only possible in cities, and you have the community coming together for the surrounding area.
If there's one thing I hate about the modern RPG it's making the player's level irrelevant through level scaling. At this point I'm convinced that there are no numbers changing between levels anymore and it's just the illusion of progression.
Brayden Sanders
>repetitive and shallow That's the point, from the dev's point of view. If you take away the levels and it's just people clearing content to prove they can overcome the challenge or whatever, then people just clear the content once and they're done. You can counter this by making more content, but you have to make an insane amount of new content compared to an mmo with some kind of leveling system. It's much more work for the same payoff.
Grayson Richardson
So instead of grinding to raise your character's stats, you're grinding to raise the stats on your character's gear, as well as grinding materials and money.
Just play Destiny or Monster Hunter or something
Nicholas Ward
Leveling and questing in zones is fun. It just needs to be made more engaging which most modern MMO fail to do.
Combat wise, make it a bit hard and incorporate CC in a cool way and that's all it takes.
Endgame raid are fun to learn but then to keep you subbed you have to repeat same scripted bullshit lots of times.
Jose Wood
>Do you have any idea how many terrible fucking PVP focused "MMO" there have been? >With the exact fucking tenets you've described? Approximately 0.
Inb4 light-heavy swordplay MMOs, and not sandboxes.
the only point in MMOs are the social aspects and even that's dead in the water
Nathan Stewart
albion online
James Cox
>The game you are describing from your armchair is not enjoyable to play. >It is a bad design. Not an argument.
>>All players want accessibility >Is down right antithetical to the appeal of MMO. The progression exists via equipment, but everybody has the same baseline potential. Ingenuity and creativity and knowledge are rewarded. Give bonus points if resource spawns and such are updated.
>The truth is people enjoy separating the wheat from the chaff via filtering their ass from a slog that helps create the semblance of competency in an endgame. Gameplay. If the loot is fun-playstyle enough, you'll want to be with everybody else, because A). it's possible being the best and getting to B). having easy-mode via what you've gotten lucky and rich with, which is more entertaining vs. valid characters.
>The alternative is a game made for and populated by literal children, women and other forms of the mentally disabled. ARK is one of the most played games on Steam. It has leveling, but mostly as an afterthought on Small Tribes; getting quality blueprints and tames puts the character at an intense advantage.
>Unless you're making some trashy battle royal, the communistic systems in place to create accessibility via balance isn't a boon, it is the absolute worst fucking thing you can do. We're talking about MMOs; and progression via equipment is free market.
Social aspects are dead and the audience for MMOs are so focused on efficiency that they optimize fun out of the game. WoW classic shows that the community bastardized the game, even with old gameplay systems. The first month or two was a blast though.
Christopher Hughes
you're actually retarded
leveling is the entire experience in mmos
or it used to be before wow made it all about muh endgame
it should be taken back to leveling being the focus with partying being a requirement
Jordan Hall
>If you take away the levels and it's just people clearing content to prove they can overcome the challenge or whatever, then people just clear the content once and they're done. Then the game should be more fun. You have people still playing Skyrim once they beat the game; there's so much to do because gathering, crafting, and trading provide the character with alchemy and smithing for huge bonuses.
PS: Skyrim with TK Dodge is fun. New World is light-heavy, yet it has 3 (simultaneous) abilities per weapon. I think a 3 button x 3 deep combo system would be best.
>You can counter this by making more content, but you have to make an insane amount of new content compared to an mmo with some kind of leveling system. It's much more work for the same payoff. Sandboxing. That's what this whole thread is about, the solution.
alot of the social aspect back in the good times was because of poor social media. I used to log onto WoW just to speak to irl friends which then got me playing more, but now i can just log onto facebook/discord and not have even think about playing WoW
James Martinez
>So instead of grinding to raise your character's stats, you're grinding to raise the stats on your character's gear, as well as grinding materials and money. >Just play Destiny or Monster Hunter or something Those aren't MMOs. A). Having a proper economy is really important; B). simultaneous characters is strategy, excitement, and fun.
