Will they ever adopt socialism again?

Neoliberalism is when capitalists control the government through lobbying
Capitalistic kleptocrats can’t control the government in China like the do in the west

It’s free tho
Plutocrats in the west consolidate power and destroy the concept of a free market
Not in China tho cause the government works for the people

Chinese Capitalistic kleptocrats ARE the government.

> Neoliberalism is when capitalists control the government through lobbying

No, neoliberalism is when the State enforces radical free market reforms, that even liberals consider barbaric. (Thus the neo in neoliberalism) This could be with dictatorial means (pinochet) or in civilized manner (tatcher, reagen)

Neoliberalism for me, is a dumb question... You could diverge 1% of the school of knowledge... This way, even Lula, Obrador, Biden or Erdogan are neoliberals,...

Nice word salad
I’ll take some ranch with that

Btw move this shit to Any Forums

Not really free market of they keep the yuan artificially low and can basically take over any business at the drop of a hat.

Free market in the usa means free to steal if you have a white collar
In China it means free from white collar thieves

>"Letter to a Gwailo"
White devil (鬼佬), you have followed me from So Fu Shu,
I am crying in my bowl of rice wine for Deng's brother,
The lion-hearted prince was thrown out of the window
During Student Revolution, I am weeping and blushing like the blossom,
Take me with you, to Socialism with Chinese Characteristics and Capitalist Reforms.
- Duàn Jingguo, WeChat

In China, the ones doing the thieving are the ones in power. In fact, you can't legally own property for your house. It is leased for 70 years.

They don’t need to steal cause they’re paid well
No scarcity mentality under communism

Means of productions "a definite form of expressing their life, a definite mode of life on their part. As individuals express their life, so they are. What they are, therefore, coincides with their production, both with what they produce and how they produce."

Socialism and communism cant exist in a system with freedom of religion, speech, and expression.

China is fascist. I am done

> Lula, Obrador, Biden

Not neoliberals, they are liberals in the classic term. We could call em post neoliberals

But neoliberalism reforms have impacted in the economy so much they cant undo many of the policies without affecting tax collections, which liberals need to socialize profits

Thats the main contradiction of capitalist taken to the extremes

Nice abuse of semantics
Anyway if caches mouse you can call it whatever you want really

They are paid well because they are stealing.

Neo liberalism by definition means
You believe the government at times pushing the economy by having stimulus bills but you dont believe in welfare.

Its been like that since the the 1890s and still is. It means nothing else.

You should watch eric li explanation about china. China adopt capitalistic characteristics during deng period but they are still communist because capitalist do not influence their politics. It is the other way around.

>he thinks all chinese companies are like shenzhen

most heavy industry is still state run and planned

Thats marx and engels exact definition.
You must have free speech, gay marriage, freedom of expression in communism or socialism or it is not socialism or c9mmunism.

China is fascist.

Takes one to know one
The usa has been eating a free lunch for 50 years on the back of the rest of the world though the reserve currency scheme
Don’t talk to me about stealing posting under that flag

China figured out capitalism makes rich

Marx was a classical economist (capitalist) and he was racist too
Also the definition of something changes thought time
Communism now means Chinese Communism cause they’re the ones carrying the torch

Free lunch? The internet didn't invent itself.

Thats the exact definition of means of production.
You must have freedom of speech and self expression in socialism and communis.
There is no debate user.
You are misusing words. It is that simple

> China embraced free market capitalism in the late
Brits continue to say the dumbest shit on this website

Anything that was invented in the usa ever since Nixon took the dollar off of gold was payed with money stolen from the global community
m.youtube.com/watch?v=8JWeNXf3Vt0

It’s okay to call communist China fascist cause both fascism and nazism are knockoff versions of communism

Who are they stealing from? And what are they stealing?

If anything, the internet made it easier for everybody to make money. No longer do you have to slave away in the fields.

Except it was made from US tax dollar, and it was fucking transfer to corporation. All of our tax dollars are funnel into businesses, but no one is complaining about it so it must be right.

No. Not at all.
This is terrible man.
Were you misusing neo liberal as well?

> makes rich
> has some people earning 1.6 dollars a day

Deng China redifined poverty

Only in the beginning. They made all that money back in Youtube buxs.

Capitalist base (how production is carried on) DEFINES politics (superstructure) not the other way around.

Thats why chinese so called communists act like imperialists in China and Asia. Thats why they support anti communist government such as that of Duterte or why they have strong economic relationshios with Israel

Its a matter of class interest.

SEZ's were founded on the principles of free trade and market capitalism. This is a fact.

* In Africa and Asia

China is trying to fix that but it’s difficult when the usa is such a burden to the world’s economy
That’s why I support China; they’ll free the world from economic slavery that the usa imposes on other countries using the dollar scheme

China is fascist but im not ripping fascism overall.
If they shift over to social democracy then they are a power house.

Neoliberalism (usa) is not sustainable so it needs imperialism to survive
Capitalism (China) doesn’t need imperialism

I honestly chuckle when people talk about petroyuan/global yuan.

The yuan is traded less than the Swiss Franc.

Neoliberialism is just keynes minus welfare
Jesus

Gommunism is here now under Joe Xiden wake up sheeple!

Attached: 239.png (582x782, 176.86K)

They don’t wanna run a racket with their currency like the usa does
They are workers not thieves
There will never be a petroyuan
The world will have to figure out a new world currency that doesn’t involve stealing precious resources from the world like the usa does by abusing reserve currency status
Plus there’s the triffin dilemma the Chinese are not stupid

Do thirdies realise China won't ever let them industrialise becuase Chinese themselves are a producer nation and want to manufacture and export?

The only thirdie countries that realise that are countries like Vietnam and India who seem to have a brain of their own and not a follower mentality like most thirdoids. If you don't regulate Chinese companies, they'll turn you into consumers and let you remain in middle income trap forever kek.

NEOLIBERALISM IS FDR'S NEW DEAL
PUBLIC ROADS, NATIONAL PARKS, DAMS BUILT TO RESTART THE ECONOMY

IT IS GIVING A MAN A FISHING POLE RATHER THAN A FISH

YOU SOUND MORONIC LOL

Neocons bomb countries for their resources
Neolibs print out fake Monopoly money and force you to accept it at gun point
They work hand in hand
China is the last bastion of real capitalism
You need a strong government that’ll enforce the rules for capitalism to work
Otherwise it’s a free for all and capitalism devolves into kleptocracy

> China is fascist

It could very well turn into a fascist state

Lets see

> state and corporate power merged into one

Checked

> promoting class collaboration thru nationalism (100 years of humiliation ideology)

Checked

> imperialistic policies on foreign countries

Checked

ITS JUST ABOUT USING GOVERNMENT FINDS FOR PUBLIC WORKS RATHER THAN ON WELFARE.YOU FUCKING MORON LOL

SINCE 1890

That’s your definition maybe you read that in a book or something
My definitions are fresh cause I’m making them and not regurgitating some old bullshit
This fdr shit is socialism which is cope for people who can’t go all the way communism
Socialism is gay and it’s a remedy for neoliberalism’s failures
Communism is actually the cure

FUNDS* LOL
IM DYING THIS GUY LOL JUST WTF HAHA

>They are workers not thieves

They steal intellectual property all the time at foreign companies.

Socialism goes hand in hand with neoliberalism just like communism goes hand in hand with capitalism
Sorry if my takes are too fresh for you maybe you’ll read them in a book in the future then you’ll believe me

It is the universally taught and recognized definition.
You sound like a moron to anyone who graduated highschool in the world. It has been like 130 years.

> China won't ever let them industrialise

Its not China fault, they still have got no that much influence to intervene in third world policies.

The reason third world countries are unable to be wealthy is to the dissacociated global value chain mode of production, where are are assambled in 15 + different countries, and each ones competes lowering their wages and labour regulations

Its a perfectly and diabolical scheme from the global north

China doesn’t promote nationalism, it’s literally the exact opposite actually. They’ve punished extreme nationalist who were destroying Japanese restaurants and cars. Learn what nationalism means

> intellectual property
That’s rentier capitalism
I’m not with that

* where products are assembled in 15+ different countries

THATS A MEANS OF PRODUCTION YOU MORON LOL

It’s cool that you’re using old definitions
My definitions will age well trust me
I know my shit

> imperialistic policies on foreign countri
I don’t think you know what imperialism means, all the memes about China’s supposed debt trap have been debunked… even by western media

I don’t believe that you can steal ideas tho
Ideas are in the air
I’m talking about stealing resources
You can’t compare the usa stealing the lifeblood from the global community with China “stealing” ideas that belong to humanity as a whole

Dude theyve literally sent weapons to duterte to kill communist. They have literally taken charge of commercial ports of african nations that could pay their debts to China. How is that not imperialism.

Its just a weaker imperialism, they dont bomb countries like the west does (not yey anyway)

So do you just want to be spoonfed and not create anything yourself or what?

That couldnt pay*

Again you have no idea what imperialism means besides the basic Google definition.
Also when was the last time China even gave weapons to the Philippines? Even if they’ve consistently sold to them China isn’t internationalist in its socialist movement.
>African ports
The ports that are there to protect Chinese ships from fucking pirates…
you should do some research

theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/02/china-debt-trap-diplomacy/617953/

Once you create something it’s over
It doesn’t belong to you it belongs to society
If you wanna continue to get payed then you should invent more things if you wanna work as an inventor
I don’t like when people invent one thing and they don’t have to work anymore for the rest of their life

China can't have Socialism "again." It never had Socialism. Nor has or could any single country. The only way Socialism could come to China is if it happened internationally. Meaning it can come to what we call China but not as an independent China. And quite in spite of the CPC.

Communism isn't a planned economy. Marx used the terms Socialism and Communism interchangeably. Socialism only comes when the conditions for the capitalist mode of production have been abolished. All historic governments that people refer to as Communist such as USSR and China under Mao were state-capitalist systems. Not even Stalin claimed USSR had Socialism, stating in a 1928 letter (Reply to Kushtysev) the USSR was rightfully called Socialist on the basis of its "readiness to achieve" Socialism.

The point is the notion that Socialism is a planned economy under Capitalism, Capitalism a free market economy, is simply an erroneous one. Capitalism is a global mode of production, Socialism can only come on a global basis when it has been abolished. Marx and Engels not only clearly and consistently defined Socialism, they clarified that it can not come in one country or region but must come internationally or not at all because Capitalism itself is a globally dominating system. Hence, both Marxist-Leninist state ideologists (frequently called "Stalinists," or "tankies") and Anarchists are both wrong about Socialism. Only theoretically clear Marxists can explain what Socialism is and political and historical matters in general from an accurate place. Unfortunately, few people read Marx and most of you here, even from former Communist countries (such as Germany) think Socialism is a system under Capitalism or think Marxism and Communism are synonymous with these historic governments that all essentially amounted to crises in a phase of capitalist development in Eastern Europe.

reddit.com/r/CapitalismVSocialism/comments/ll0wmi/the_original_new_to_marxism_post_hy_uehrino

Yeah, but you somehow neglect the fact that you need to be capitalism to move up the stage. Communism isn't a one size fit all approach, it is dependent on the development of the nation. At the time deng took power, they were poor and couldn't expand even with good workforces. So they shifted to the capitalistic approach. The test is time. Since they are largely "developed" now (2nd world?), if they shift their policies to be more socialist then we know their true end game. They call it socialism with China characteristic for a reason. They just do thing differently.

As for support other countries, I don't think you should frame it like that. They are the last country to carry the torch. While I don't think their model is correct, even the Chinese says their model shouldn't be exported, they are the last country that can bring about socialism by creating conditions to challenge the current hegemony. They can't be picky in choosing partners because they can't afford it. China policy is not to mess with other countries internal affairs. So, they can't push other countries to be socialist even if they wanted to. You should know this.

That's just for show since the Japanese are actually big investors in China. China asks for apologies all the damn time for insulting their nation and they will ban your products from all their marketplaces for doing so.

>Only theoretically clear Marxists can explain what Socialism is
Marxists can explain what THEY think socialism is
Turns out that socialism is something that goes way beyond Marxism. Marxists can pretend that socialism is something they own but that doesn't make it true

> That's just for show since the Japanese Even if it’s just for show you still can’t find anything from the CPC with ultranationalist tendencies. And by ultranationalist I mean shit like claiming the Chinese nation is superior to others

Where do you get the idea that it's yours forever? Patents expire for that very reason.

Don't they claim a shitload of waters and islands of off SEA as theirs? lmao

> JUST WAIT CHINA WILL BE COMMUNIST GUYS

Kek. Youre the left version of the two more weeks magatoids.

Theres no evidence China will turn into marxist anywhere in the future

The thousands of billionaries are very happy with the way things are

You're correct and he's wrong. No serious anti-imperialist is fond of China for the reasons you state and more. Even under Mao there were serious issues. Most Communists don't see Mao as all bad but he misunderstood and mangled much theory and was a politician before all else, even backing Cambodia under Khmer Rouge in China's national/geopolitical self-interests. (its conflict with Vietnam, a country it invaded after the U.S. pulled out in the '70s.)

This is a good work that explains "what went wrong" with the historic Communist governments. It's in no way a reflection on the theory of Marxism nor Communism itself, in fact a clear understanding of these things itself demonstrates where these governments fell wrong.

marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1978/marxism.htm

In brief, they were capitalist states and not the workers seizing state power Marx and Engels wrote about. Most people think they represent the thought of Marx because Marx advocated workers seizing the state and suppressing the ruling-class. (not as a permanent state of affairs but to secure the revolution and pave the way for world Communism.) In contrast the Soviet Union, China, and other countries were suppressive bureaucratic elite capitalist states, essentially doomed to failure from the start. (dissolution in the case of the Soviet Union, and what we can see China has become today in the case of China...although there is a tragic internal history of betrayal that China has, including a former wife of Mao by the name of Jiang Qing having been arrested, tried and imprisoned by altered leadership.

You mean the billionaires that disappear from time to time when they say something "bad"?

when they challenge the parties grip, not when they criticise the works of marx lol

> You're correct and he's wrong. N
He’s literally using the debunked debt trap meme as evidence of imperialism, which is what most “anti- imperialist” people say about China
You are both retarded and should immediately kill yourself

That’s my whole point
They should expire after a year and that’s being generous
Some people will argue that there’s no incentive to create stuff if there’s no patents
Guess what we’re not in a hurry to get things invented
What we can’t have is a bunch of rentier parasites leeching off society just cause they (((invented))) some bullshit
Look what rentier economics did to society
Rentier capitalism is a very important component of clownworld

>So they shifted to the capitalistic approach. The test is time. Since they are largely "developed" now (2nd world?), if they shift their policies to be more socialist then we know their true end game
This is bullshit I could get from r/genzedong, shifting policies of a capitalist state doesn't produce Socialism. Only violent international revolution can do this. China already suppresses its proletariat and serious Marxists in the country, jailing political dissidents. (see below) All Marxists there run afoul of the CPC.

ft.com/content/fd087484-2f23-11e9-8744-e7016697f225

The notion that China is building Socialism through policy is literally CPC propaganda. Obviously sufficient development and productive forces are needed for Socialism but this only comes through a violent revolution against the capitalist ruling-class, seizure of state power and the establishment of a transitional worker's state in the case of countries that are not sufficiently developed. (so NOT China, a country that IS sufficiently developed at this point, already totally debunking this notion that justifies its current leadership on the basis it's "building Socialism" as it only works to ensure the present and future success of its suppressive bourgeoisie.)

Ngl, China has a big problem with education. Their approach is nation first like most country, but communism is an international movement, transcend borders. So, China should reform their core system to reflect the country value, but it won't happen or I'm just speaking out of my ass.

They do have historical claims, but the same can be said for other countries. They are negotiating deals between each countries involved. Not going to be easy but it been going on for almost 20 years now. It should be resolve soon.

>Creating something that people want to buy
>leech

????

China does use debt traps for the benefit of its corporations to the detriment of the exploited proletariat in the countries it builds infrastructure projects in. This is basic common knowledge and fact. The fact that you have to resort to telling people who observe this to kill themselves demonstrates how shaky you even are in your own denial, and your need to worship China, the CPC and presumably Xi Jinping in a religious manner. No Communists take you seriously, everyone who has basic sense knows that China is a suppressive capitalist imperialist country at this point.

>They do have historical claims

What historical claim? That some Chinese sailor went past it a thousand years ago? If anything, it belongs to the nearest SEA country since it's in their backyard.

No, Socialism is grounded in demonstrably true material things. Marx himself never said exactly what it would be or what it would look like and only described this in the most general possible terms. Capitalism has an objective historical precedent and existence and consequently its end must too. Everyone who says "Socialism means different things to different people" wants to redefine it in the service of mystification to justify an arrangement under capitalism (not merely a system governments choose but a global mode of production that can only end globally by Socialism) and calling it "Socialism." This includes "Socialist" politicians in the West who want to herald the coming "Great Reset" mutations of the system (rentier capitalism which was even mentioned above) as Socialism. Accurately defining Socialism (the conditions that mark the abolition of the capitalist mode of production) should be the first concern of all Socialists, but again, most people use Socialism to mean a state of affairs under Capitalism whether that's the Soviet Union or Norway. You're all absolutely wrong to do so. Marxism is a demonstrably true theory, anything but dogmatism. If only people read what he actually wrote, they'd see this at once.

marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm

Bro again, I don't know how the fuck each one of them claim it, but they all have their own stupid little evidence. At least now they are negotiating. It been more than a decade. So, it should be done soon.

They don’t wanna buy it
Most of the times they’re just keeping up with the Joneses
Also watch this vid pls I beg you
You’re too stiff with your thinking
Gotta loosen up a bit
m.youtube.com/watch?v=8JWeNXf3Vt0

Like I said, just let it belong to the nearest country. Keep it simple. China should have zero claims.

>debt traps
Man, just go watch some actual people from Africa talking about it. They are not stupid. Nobody is stupid. As for China, their interest rate are their zero or really small. Most of the time they restructure debts, like during the pandemic. There is little to no evidence to suggest it to be debt trap. Anyways, do more research.

Yes, you're correct. Communism is necessarily international because Capitalism is a globally dominating system thus it can only be overthrown on an international basis. China has no interest in working toward Communism at this point, I'd say Mao did but the problems with China's historical existence and that of the Soviet Union and the other nominally Communist countries go much deeper than errors or internal betrayal, as the article I linked to in my reply here does a great job of explaining.

It's their choice to do what they want with their money. People at least want to be as good as their peers. It is a basic human trait. Some may want more than that. If they're willing to work for it, it's their prerogative.

Go back to r/genzedong, seriously. No one takes people like you seriously. You're asking me to ask what bourgeois Africans think, many of which love to defend China. You don't care what the proletariat thinks who suffer under what China is doing. And even if some proletarians there approve of it that doesn't just make them right because they're from there, were the proletarians in Iraq who disliked Saddam Hussein and supported the U.S. invasion right to do so just because they're from there and hence must surely know better? China has been involved in child labor and violent suppression of mining strikers in Africa too. Do yourself a favor and leave your religion of reverence for China's bourgeoisie and corporations behind.

Any Forums actually thinks neoliberalism is a left-wing, literally the ideology of Thatcher and Reagan. That board is the dumbest people on Earth trying to discuss politics

Even Africans think Chinese infrastructure is shit compared to the Japanese.

youtube.com/watch?v=2ZcgsZwCd78

Are you gonna watch the video or not
I’m rewatching it rn

Truth is China now is closer to their imperial form than any eyropean ideal government.
>everyone serves the empire
>the empire keeps stability
>strong political and mercantile families can muscle their way in
>gets pruned if they step on too many toes in the imperial court
>locals rule however they want long as it doesn't get the emperor's attention
To do chinese politics is to deal with groups, westerners will never comprehend this.

No.

>No, Socialism is grounded in demonstrably true material things
What the fuck are you even talking about retard?
Socialism is a concept. You are talking about the marxist version of socialism aka scientific socialism. Of course, marxists always want to pretend that they own the Socialism (tm) trademark for propaganda purposes but it's just not true.
On the other hand, saying that "scientific" socialism is grounded on material grounds is complete bullshit. Marx's materialism was entirely mundane and has been surpassed by other philosophers (and reality aswell...)

The definitions mean nothing but China is a MORE planned economy than the US with new NOVEL ways of allocations resources and production in a centralized way compared to the mixed market economy of the US. They also have complete control of their billionaire and millionare class and still have a culture of putting ‘politics’ and ‘policy’ above capital and other lesser interests — imo this isn’t some grand communist ideal but an ideal of an up and coming civilization or nation, a country in their ‘ascent to greatness’ where the level of corruption and decadence is low compared to the West.

Communist, socialist, etc. mean nothing. Communism in third world countries (non white countries) in practice is just hyper nationalism, obsession with the disenfranchised, a view of white peoples/colonists bad, self determination, etc. It’s different than western leftistm

Socialism isn't just a concept. Saying Socialism is just a concept is like saying Capitalism is just a concept. I recommend you read (you won't) this:

marxists.org/glossary/terms/s/o.htm#socialism

Marxism hasn't been "surpassed by reality" nor are Marxists propogandists. You're just a typical Liberal who parrots the bourgeois notion that the historic governments like the USSR represented the thought of Marx and the theory of Marxism but this isn't true at all. Instead of calling me a retard when I've actually done my research, try reading about it. (again, you won't and will think this way till your dying breath.)

marxists.org/archive/mattick-paul/1978/marxism.htm
marxists.org/subject/students/index.htm

China has whole towns where the elite and their relatives can do what they want.

youtube.com/watch?v=Hc-dJMq9gxM

you are right. china is not some angel, but they are the only one with a chance against the current structure. there is no true left movement worldwide. if there is one, it would be coup. can you really blame me? i think china has the best chance fueling other countries development worldwide, this will create challenges for the current hegemony. after that, they can fuel other socialist state in a multipolar world without fear.

Quality control is not their strong suit, but they will get better eventually. also, my comment was about them being honest and not debt trapping countries like imf loans.

>tfw people think China and USA are two opposing forces and not two different ways of carrying out the same end goal

Attached: china communism baesd redpill screencap capitalism meme 4chan amerimutt (nm).jpg (2283x634, 203.44K)

>go watch
I for one live this reality. Chinese bloat their loans to 3-5 times the normal cost, then bribe locals to accept it over loans from more reasonable countries. Everything from raw materials to labor will be handled by chinese companies, so no jobs for locals.
If you ever go against them they threaten to stop the projects and still make you pay for the loans.
Propaganda may twist the truth a lot as it crosses the ocean but please do not hail them as champions for the people. You do not like China, you just hate the USA.