Is subverting expectations inherently a good thing for a series to have? Should all series aim to subvert expectations in some form or way? If so, how often should it happen in a single series? Can it be overdone? What are some examples of subverting expectations being done well? What are some examples of subverting expectations being done poorly?
Is subverting expectations inherently a good thing for a series to have...
Wyatt Collins
Parker Rodriguez
gdgd fairies
David Williams
>Is subverting expectations inherently a good thing for a series to have?
NO!
Isaac Green
Subversion works because it's unexpected. When it becomes the norm, it stops having emotional impact because you the viewer are already braced for it to happen so it doesn't catch you off guard. Nothing wrong with how it was handled in Madoka but when the trend became "Magical girls and shit oh and there's also some fucked up shit going on behind the scenes!" it stopped being special and just another in a long series of anime tropes.
Christian Green
the thing you're substituting in should be more interesting than the default trope, not just edgier or more contemptuous of its audience
Juan Hughes
>subverting inherently good
No. And edgy tryhard shit that tries to be shocking or profound is consistently shit. I have yet to see an actual subversion with a fleshed out cast of characters and good writing all throughout. Look at popular "subversions" like Chainsaw Man, Madoka, One Punch Man. Only one character in each series is fully developed, the rest of the characters are paper thin in comparison to that one character. The pseud anime always puts all its chips into being avant garde or different but in exchange it loses soul and the very basic necessities of what makes a good story. Subversive anime are usually forgotten and lose their novelty very quickly in comparison to more traditional anime. Because characters matter more than shock value.
Evan Morgan
"subversion" is good because you are making something different rather than tropey and derivitive
And unique fiction is inherently more entertaining to me
subversion inerently cannot be the norm tho.
John Gray
buzzwords used by graduates in film or literature. Do not take them seriously
Caleb Campbell
Monogatari doesn't seem to have that issue
>and lose their novelty very quickly in comparison to more traditional anime
What do you mean by traditional anime? You mean stuff that is more tropey and derivitive? That shit is soulless
Brayden Morris
>madoka
>only one character fully developed
Is this a joke?
Owen Thomas
"subversion" is just poor man's plot-twist.
A good plot twist is surprising but does have the hints leading up to it, and can be reached naturally if the viewer is meticulous.
Subversions, that are completely random or has very few clues hinting at it, are inherently shit. Because it means that literally anything can happen and all of the stakes you have built up goes straight out the window.
Cameron Martin
When Madoka was airing, most of the people knew that shit was going to hit the fan since they announced Urobuchi’s involvement with the project. Moemura reveal was a lot more surprising than episode 3.
Adam Morgan
Ask that the Kengan Omega bros
Aiden Lopez
I hope they will get a happy ending.
Robert Gutierrez
Madoka is good but the reasons why have nothing to do with subversion.
Joseph Foster
He's not wrong that all of the other characters are cardboard compared to Homura, why do you think she's far and away the most popular character? Not that they're bad, but they aren't particularly great either.
Bentley Rodriguez
Nah Sayaka has great characterization. He has no idea what he's talking about.
Hudson Brown
I'm pretty sure op is referring to genre / trope subversions rather than plot twists.
Joseph Sanchez
Hell yeah, except that they're all very well developed, except Kyoko maybe. But yeah Homura takes the cake. Hehe.
Gabriel Hughes
>q1
It's all about creating a fresh experience so yes I suppose it is a good thing to have.
>q2
No.
>q3
It should happen as many times as it needs to. If you keep subverting every action then your plot will become predictable, and vice versa. Much like anything, a balance must be made.
>q4
Yes.
>q5
Steins;Gate ending. It's completely unexpected and actually makes sense instead of the generic le genius asspulls.
>q6
Pic you posted. Shitty subversion that is only there for subversion. It does not serve as a disclaimer for the series being edgy or anything since nothing on the same level or even worse happens afterwards. It's just there for le :o moment.
Lucas Watson
Isn't the meta that Sayaka is the second "deepest" character right behind Homura?
Developed maybe, but I don't know about "well". Very typical and straightforward story of innocent minded characters spiraling downward into madness and despair if you ask me.
Aaron Morales
Read Dies Irae for fantastic subversion.
Eli Turner
Generally subversion is not inherently a good or a bad thing because the concept itself is simply meant to surprise or alter the prevailing narrative concepts to present an alternative to the traditional. The only time it works is when you build around the subversive ideals such that it is not simply a poor take on the traditional ideals it means to supplant, and the times it fails are centrally based in one's failure to build a foundation for the subversion to actually rest on.
One of the simplest examples of this that I remember is still Log Horizon's silly burger arc(?) where the most particular tropes they worked against were the ideas of Isekai environments generally working with all senses because the world should just be functional for that purpose. It's presumed, if you eat food in Isekai Land, that it should taste like food. In Log Horizon, however, the developers for the game they got stuck into didn't really have any reason to program in flavors, so food made using the Crafting UI tastes like flavorless bread, and they all hated it. The story works with these tiny "Why would you expect this to work that way in an MMO?" questions when applied to an actual alternate reality because it's built to handle them. Many trope subversions that are not adequately formed to handle these just come across as an author's spite towards the concept, rather than a perspective shift or an interesting rethinking of the concept.
Liam Morgan
My expectations were subverted for the worse by this screenshot.
It was the only spoiler I had seen of Madoka before I watched it so I assumed a witch was going to make Mami kill herself, as was established in the previous episode.
Instead she just gets murked.
Ryder Rodriguez
Subversion can be good if it adds value to the story and stakes or if what you are watching/reading is a comedy it's probably the punch-line. Lots of people despite their education in Litrature or screen-play decide to have subversion to "own" the viewer and pretend that they the author is really smart, their subversion will be dumb ruin the stakes and leave a plot hole or just ignore everything the story has set up for some other story the author has in mind so he ass pulls everything. No little trick in Litrature is inherently "good" you need a balance of things like world-building, character-building, progressing the plot, setting the stakes, and the host of other things you need to think about when writing, subversion can be interesting and add depth to a story if pulled off correctly and when called for just like any other trick.