Debate:

France was already shaping Europe long before Germany was even a thing

But Holy Roman Empire saw itself as legit heir to Charlemagne. That's why most European royal houses are German (including the British one)

France was always the most populous country in Europe. Until the end of the 17th century it had more population than Russia. That means that France has had the hegemony of Europe since the Middle Ages.

And answering the question, France has been at the forefront of the most important social movements and changes in Europe, they invented the Old and the New Regime.

Right now they have been surpassed by Germany in everything.

I second this user. No other civilization— aside from maybe Ancient Greece— has had as much of an influence on European culture and way of life as Ancient Rome. You wouldn’t have Charlemagne without RVME

France easily

Carolingian Empire. All Western Europe comes from them. France and Germany are the children of Carolingia

After that, probably France which was the most populated and power country by far in history. But in reality these are all successor states of Carolingia

Attached: Carolingian-empire-divisions-Treaty-of-Verdun.gif (1345x1600, 294.74K)

Germany is based on the German Confederation which itself was the successor to the Holy Roman Empire. There is a fairly direct continuation

France is the legitimate heir to the Carolingian empire. Charles, called the bald, was going to be the heir to the entire Carolingian empire, but his brothers revolted and forced him to sign the Treaty of Verdun, and he took the western part, France.

Attached: tratado de verdún 843.jpg (484x367, 59.91K)

So France-Germany should be seen as the co-inheritors?
I guess it makes sense as both are the core of the EU too. And the capital of EU is located between the two countries

The holy Roman empire was dissolved after one battle in the Napoleonic wars and the German confederation was a french puppet

Probably Austria contributed more than Germany in European history

The Spanish monarchy is the House of Bourbon, which is is a direct line of rule from Charlemagne... Your king is rightful Western Roman Emperor... I KNEEL

Attached: Dinasty_Bourbon_(Spain)_-_kings2_-_family_tree_by_shakko_(EN).jpg (1904x6312, 1.23M)

Yes
But also important to note that the Carolingans were Germans that just subjugated the poor and illiterate native french gauls, we had to civilize them and succeeded to varying degrees

They were the most important country before the revolution too.

You’re retarded

It’s greece and rome

yes, but even then it's more appropriate to call Rome the origin. Western Roman collapse was very brief and never even really happened in Italy. A brief lapse of authority in the Western Roman Empire which was filled when the Franks made an alliance with the Gallo-Roman aristocracy

That's only because Germany wasn't united. France has never been more populous. Never ever. The HRE has been the hegemon.

I see, so Belgium is the answer.

Franks came mainly from the Netherlands.

Those germanic ruling class quickly got reserve assimilated though by the Latins. Like Lombards etc. Reminds me of the Manchus in China

well, the EU IS based in Brussels...

HRE was not populated only by Germans.

All European houses come from Charlemagne

No you're retarded.
Ancient Greek influence on Western Europe only happened after the enlightenment. After the crusaders brought back Arabic translations of ancient Greek writings. Rome was a literal ruin until the new nation of Italy captured it from the papal states and made it their capital as a kind of classical larp move.

Not really. The house of Habsburg was the most important during part of the modern age and came from a Swiss fiefdom.

Not really. There is barley any Roman influence on Western Europe. Almost all is Carolingian in origin including Christianity etc