Why is there so much debate about whether the Marvel Netflix shows take place in the MCU...

Why is there so much debate about whether the Marvel Netflix shows take place in the MCU? Hasn't it all been established? As well as the ABC, Hulu, and FreeForm shows.

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The short answer is: they don't until they do.

Daredevil is in a gray area where we've seen the characters in the MCU now, but they've cleverly set up the concept of variants so we'll have to stay guessing as to whether these are really the characters we watched on Netflix.

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Don't they reference stuff happening in the MCU like the Snap and stuff like that? I'm pretty sure Jessica Jones says she likes to think she's like the Avengers

I feel like they've always said from the beginning that the shows were part of their Marvel universe and that hasn't really been disputed until recently for some reason.

Yeah but it was one-way canon like Agents of Shield.

Until the MCU acknowledges the events of the shows directly, they could conveniently be referencing events/Avengers of a very similar MCU but not necessarily ours.

Netflix is one way canon currently being soft rebooted. They don’t want Danny Rand or Luke Cage moving forward

AoS and the netflix stuff both reference the events of the first Avengers movie at a minimum. AoS references a bit more. But none of them recognize the events of the Snap, and AoS is explicitly another timeline by the end that has its own alien invasions going on and in which Thanos was defeated offscreen somehow. The Netflix shows all crashed and burned before the snap ever happened so there was no chance for a conflict of canon there.

Since Donofrio Kingpin showed up in Hawkeye, but apparently had little relation to the Netflix version of him, I think the best assumption to take is that the characters are still the characters that you remember, but none of the events are the same until proven otherwise. Netflix and MCU are different timelines for now.

The Netflix shows and AoS were created as part of the MCU.
But at some point Feige (head of the movies) and Loeb (head of the series) stopped working together for some reason and Feige decided that the shows were not part of the MCU anymore.
Then Feige started to create shows too, and Marvel canceled all the previous ones.
Having Kingpin and Murdock in the recent Marvel productions is the first acknowledgement of the older shows since then.

So what you are telling me is that none of the TV shows are canonical except the Disney+ ones, and the Daredevil and Kingpin we've seen are not the same as in the TV shows. I wish they would make up their minds and clarify that.

It's not that clear.
Until there is no official statement, we can't be sure of anything.

More or less until stated otherwise

Making official statements limits their future options. Making no statements and letting the fans believe what they want, doesn't limit their future options.
If some creator in 10 years has a great Daredevil story, but the MCU already made an official statement about the Netflix stories, then that creator might not be able to tell that story anymore.
Better to not say anything and then let the future decide, if necessary at all.
As it stands, there's nothing that happened in the Netflix MCU, that would really make a difference in the MCU, so it's in their best interest to just let people believe that it happened, until they have a story that requires it to have not happened.

It's part of the problem with following ongoing series, previous stories will always become less important as time goes on. Especially with live action actors aging out of roles or having irl scandals that can change future options.

IIRC, the debate isn't about whether or not the shows take place in the MCU, because they most certainly do; rebuilding new york after the aliens trashed it in the first Avengers was the first main plot point of Daredevil

The debate is about whether or not the netflix shows are a part of MCU canon; Daredevil takes place in the MCU, but does the MCU exist *around* daredevil?

Like Agents of SHIELD; the show takes place in the MCU, but the MCU (outside of one or two very small consessions) doesn't care about Agents of SHIELD at all, and in many places contradicts it.

This is mostly settled with Daredevil being in Spider-Man and Kingpin being in Hawkeye, but there's still the other shows, and specific events within.

Like, does the MCU know or care that the entirety of New York is built on an ancient dragon graveyard? Probably not.

They are cannon until they aren't
>Like, does the MCU know or care that the entirety of New York is built on an ancient dragon graveyard? Probably not.
Even the shows ignored that

>Even the shows ignored that
For the best.

God, the Defenders was such a disappointment

The tv shows referenced the movies a lot, but the movies never referenced the TV shows. When there was an inhuman outbreak in Shield, no one said anything. No one ever talked about the time New York almost sank into the ground, either.

Then, in Shield season 6-7, no one mentioned how they were living in a world where half of the population was gone.

>But at some point Feige (head of the movies) and Loeb (head of the series) stopped working together for some reason and Feige decided that the shows were not part of the MCU anymore.
I believe it was because Perlmutter was refusing Feige the opportunity to use Iron Man in Captain America 3

is it really an ignorance thing if none of the like three seasons we got had anything to do with the history of New York?

Huh? Wasn't Captain America 3 the Civil War movie?

yeah. Apparently, Feige went above Perlmutter to Disney, and that's what convinced them to split Marvel and Marvel Studios, because Disney really liked the idea of Civil War with RDJ