I feel like the spoken word isn't really musical, even the rhyming sense and the meters and the form and structure, even if it follows a "beat" it's not really inherently musical, it's a different form of art. I like poetry but I think writing songs and writing music are two completely different things, and let me clarify I think the voice can be an instrument and musical in and of itself but you have to use it for tones rather than words.
Poetry is easily one of the hardest things, it is a great art and many fail at it. Music is also one of the hardest things and many also fail at it and I think people who are mediocre at both combine them and so their mediocrity doesn't seem to mediocre.
I was in an argument cause I don't really respect rap as a form of music, and as the argument went on I came to realize for the most part I don't really see the vast majority of songs that rely on lyrics as real music, or at least not real music. Sure by the base definition that garbage is music, but it's like finger paintings vs frescos, sure the finger painting is technically painting but really come on.
I'm tired of these shit people who don't spend the time to even train the vocals calling themselves musicians, even their lyrics aren't fucking profound. Someone tried to convince me kendrick lamar was amazing and this mfer is rhyming terrorist with asparagus, it's turned into just rhyming shit just to rhyme.
And it's not just rap, i fucking hate modern country, modern folk, and while I'll admit to liking some rock, most of it is garbage, but at least it has solos for the actual musicians.
And it's not just hate for the negroes, I like jazz.
Lyrics are poetry, not music
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You might detest modern folk and country, but do you see lyrical value in classic or "golden age" folk and country?
Nobody has ever said lyrics are music. Singing is music because it has melody, rapping is music because it has rhythm. Words are not music.
I enjoy instrumental bluegrass a lot, to me country and folk ar watered down version of bluegrass
if you remove the words would singing and rap be diminished? See this is what I mean, by the BASE definition sure, rap is music but it's barely music and it relies heavily on words to actually have meaning and purpose, meanwhile true music has no reliance, it is in and of itself a contained system.
I play violin and I hate when people request a pop song or gods forbid a rap song, they don't realize that I'll either be playing a simple boring beat or worse the lyrics which for the most part in pop don't change that much and are boring and rap has a tendency to not even change notes and so you're left with an even more brain deadening simplification.
If I were to apply what I said above to rap, rap is watered down hip hop, which in and of itself is watered down jazz.
>if you remove the words would singing and rap be diminished?
Words are unrelated to musical qualities. If you removed the words and replaced it with gibberish they'd have the exact same musical value. Sung vocals would still be melodic, rapped vocals would still be rhythmic. Example: scat
Do you consider the drums to be a musical instrument? Because they produce the same musical quality as rapped vocals. Rap isn't spoken word, it isn't "talking fast" and it isn't "just rhymes". It's rhythm.
Again it's music by its base means.
You cannot deny that rap leans heavily on lyrics and if you just make the beats you will not get a lot of recognition, you don't see any rappers doing scat because scat is jazz and therefore inherently more musical, because yes it doesn't rely on lyrics. Scat uses the voice as an instrument.
" If you removed the words and replaced it with gibberish they'd have the exact same musical value"
I'd argue that if you did that then rap wouldn't exist as a genre, it would just be lofi at that point, simple beats I suppose you could "chill" to but it's barely music.
Your academic pretentiousness isn't an argument. You are quite literally culturally and musically retarded. And here's the evidence:
> folk ar watered down version of bluegrass
Disregarding the existence of all folk music that was created before the existence of the United states
>rap is watered down hip hop
Disregarding that rap is a vocal method, not a genre
>Scat uses the voice as an instrument
Implying that sung vocals and rapped vocals don't do the exact same thing. Apparently adding words makes your "instrument" become not an instrument
>Again it's music by its base means.
Leave it at that. You can't worm your way out of this fact.
bluegrass is traditional, it's merely American traditional, I'm not lumping on other countries folk music with modern American folk, but the talking of country implies American music.
Singing notes and singing lyrics are two different things, and typically the later is a crutch by those who lack the ability for the first. If I were to play a scat verse on violin it would still be musical and be able to stand alone, the vast majority of rap verses are not up to the same standard.
It's music in the same way that finger painting is art, it's barely there. It's not a respectable form of music, so yea I can leave it at that.
Consider that it is both.
You now realize that rap is basically just scat without melody, and that your entire dislike of rap is just the dislike of rhythm focused music. Next you're gonna tell us African polyrhythms aren't "respectable forms of music". Uncultured swine.
"dislike of rap is just the dislike of rhythm focused music"
I dislike over simplification. I can appreciate a good drum solo, which is entirely beats and rhythm but it's so much more than a simple 2 bars repeating forever.
From what I've just now looked at polyrhythms are pretty good, but it's leagues different than rap, and I'd wager you can't actually rap to it despite both being "rhythm focused" because from what I can tell the singing that goes with it is mostly chant style traditional. You're insulting polyrhythmic african music but trying to lump it with rap your moron.
So try again faggot.
I feel like we've gotten to the point where you're no longer arguing from your original position. Rap is inherently musical. "It's too simple" isn't an argument. So try again faggot.
If you remove the meaning of words then rap becomes practically nothing, it's over simplistic. By the base definition it's music but it's not respectable, it's an insult to music.
>practically nothing
Except it still has rhythm, timbre and tone, which completely blows your argument out of the water. I again reiterate:
>Your academic pretentiousness isn't an argument.
By definition you're wrong.
If anything my argument goes against "academic pretentiousness" you could callme elitist I suppose, but the academics would be on your side and argue pure definition and ignore the need for separation and distinction between various forms of art and despite the joining of several forms does not mean that if you can do one you can do the other.
Yes a part of it is music but it a)doesn't necessarily need to have music or even a beat and b) it's still leans heavily towards poetry (regardless of it's failings in that regard as well) and therefore falls out of the realm of music.
rap is bad, every1 knows this
You're arguing just for arguments sake now.
No you're just missing the point I've been trying to make since the OP.
Allow me to elaborate I suppose.
In the forms of arts there are more or less different levels, the arts are a form of communication, you can express a variety of things in a variety of ways, from everything from the beat of a piece to the shades of colors on a painting.
Music is inherently natural, as Bach once said, Music is the closest we will ever get to divinity, and if you look at it religiously or even scientifically you will realize the truth in this. There is no actual reason that music should be so pleasing as it is, there is no real reason that it seems almost essential to life, for although it is not needed in the same sense as food or water, life seems greatly lessened without its existence. It's something that even animals can enjoy, despite lacking the knowledge of things like math and frequencies and explanations for music, play for a cow and if you play well the cow will enjoy the music.
Music is at the top level of this metaphysical scale, it requires nothing except what already exists, it is a a part of the world, it is tied to it by whatever created this realm.
Words however are a human invention, and even if they had divine inspiration they are not a part of this world in the same way as music, one could argue that the rhymes and the syllables creating beats can be of a divine nature, but ultimately it sits on a lower tier than music, it is not equal to music.
And that's not even getting into the lack of skill, while most music has suffered a degradation in general of the skill of its players, non so more than the descendants of jazz, who once had complex rhythms and melodies and now it has been reduced to base components and the bastardization of the spoken language.
This isn't academy bullshit, schools are worthless and would never even consider these thoughts because they're too narrow minded. Quit holding to your useless definitions and realize the truth.
Made you tl:dr, faggot lol lmao
ah yes well I suppose you're used to rap which again is over simplified and short, gotta keep it short for the modern negro eh?
I don't listen to hip hop anymore, but these posts are dumb. rap is music, rap is a far cry from spoken word.
memes aside rhyming nigga with nigga is pretty rare, it's rhymed with trigger most of the time